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Thread: D15 Moving from 103W to 101W

  1. #71
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    Can you ask them if they see anything on channels 660, 662 and 9509? They're some of the few channels still mapped to 103s for Puerto Rico.

  2. #72
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    I'm just still surprised and puzzled how the H20s in slice's experiment were able to d/l "fast PID" APG packets from 99/103 on bootup.

    While still mildly surprising I guess I can understand "slow PID" streams on the Ka band tps. I was certain the fast PID streams were only on assigned Ku tps. to be used only on boot up.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoTat2 View Post
    I'm just still surprised and puzzled how the H20s in slice's experiment were able to d/l "fast PID" APG packets from 99/103 on bootup.

    While still mildly surprising I guess I can understand "slow PID" streams on the Ka band tps. I was certain the fast PID streams were only on assigned Ku tps. to be used only on boot up.
    It kind of makes sense - there is more bandwidth to spare on 99/103 than there is on 101, though until they obsolete the older hardware next year they still need to provide all those resources on 101.

    The only thing that MUST be on a DSS transponder is anything the network tuner needs to see - the SWM channel transponder plus something similar needs to be available on 101 odd for the network tuner on receivers in legacy mode. Beyond that all the metadata could go DVB-S2, and theoretically could move to 99/103 though since there will no longer be a bandwidth shortage on 101 there's no reason to do so - it probably makes sense to leave it on 101 since Ku is a little more resistant to rain fade and other signal issues.

    The question I have is, what metadata is there that the DataDigesters are collecting that is NOT available on the SWM channel transponder? What might we lose if it goes DVB-S2?

  4. #74
    Data Miner Tom Speer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slice1900 View Post
    Well many of the H2*/HR2* receivers have a DSS only network tuner, meaning the SWM guide tuner transponder (101/32) must remain DSS. So worst case at least you will be able to get whatever it contains.

    FWIW I don't see any technical reason why you shouldn't be able to collect data off the DVB-S2 transponders. Apparently Directv uses a non standard adaptive modulation (ACM) but just as you can buy satellite tuners that use chips able to demodulate DSS, you would be able to buy satellite tuners that use chips able to demodulate Directv's DVB-S2 w/ACM. Just have to look into what chips are used in Directv's H2*/HR2* receivers and buy a PCI or USB satellite tuner that uses that chip. Then you'd at least get a signal lock.

    Not saying it wouldn't be a lot of work to figure out how to decode it, but years ago someone did the work to decode DSS so it can be done. Hopefully it would be easier than DSS, if it is pretty much standard DVB-S2 other than use of ACM. Whether anyone has the time/desire to put in the effort, that's another matter
    I haven't really tried to dig in to DirecTV's DVB-S2 system, but I understand that some details were revealed in a patent application. As I understand it, there is a binary sequence, called something like a "gold sequence" that must be known by the receiver, in order to even lock on to a signal. That sequence can be different for every A3 transponder. Even if we could find out what that sequence is for a particular transponder, we would need receiving hardware and software that could apply it to the signal acquisition process. Right now, with our present equipment we cannot even tell if a A3 transponder exists. When I try to tune my Ku-only satellite card to D7S TPN 24, which is using the A3 system, It reports "no lock" with any combination of tuning parameters, that I have tried. The sat receiver card does support normal DVB-S2.
    Tom Speer, N2HF, the curious otter. Part of the DataDigesters team.

  5. #75
    Data Miner Tom Speer's Avatar
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    Slice, I think you should re-evaluate your conclusion that there is APG data coming from anything other than 101 and 119. I don't know how you did the timing of your tests, and disconnections, but consider this: The fast APG data is downloaded in Step 2 of 2 from 101 entirely, if you have a SL3. Each TPN that the STB has to listen to takes about 10 seconds, for signal lock and data transmission. Your local APG, and Net 0 APG, are downloaded in the first 20 seconds of that step, and the APG for the rest of the Nets are completed within the next 20 seconds of that step. Picking up Net 3 from 119 would add 10 seconds for a SL5. Each Fast APG pid is transmitted at a rate that guarantees completion of all data in 8 seconds, with enough information that the STB would know if it an error occurred and data was missing. The Fast APG data is all the STB needs to know to populate the the initial guide. Each customer STB only has to download one local APG.

    I have no idea what it is doing in the 2 minutes of the boot process prior to step 2 of 2.

    I do think there has been improvement in the boot sequence timing, but that is related to the efficiency of the software.
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  6. #76
    Data Miner Tom Speer's Avatar
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    One other thing, The Net 0 Fast APG, and about 19 local markets require even TPNs, as do most of the On-demand channels.
    Tom Speer, N2HF, the curious otter. Part of the DataDigesters team.

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Speer View Post
    Slice, I think you should re-evaluate your conclusion that there is APG data coming from anything other than 101 and 119. I don't know how you did the timing of your tests, and disconnections, but consider this: The fast APG data is downloaded in Step 2 of 2 from 101 entirely, if you have a SL3. Each TPN that the STB has to listen to takes about 10 seconds, for signal lock and data transmission. Your local APG, and Net 0 APG, are downloaded in the first 20 seconds of that step, and the APG for the rest of the Nets are completed within the next 20 seconds of that step. Picking up Net 3 from 119 would add 10 seconds for a SL5. Each Fast APG pid is transmitted at a rate that guarantees completion of all data in 8 seconds, with enough information that the STB would know if it an error occurred and data was missing. The Fast APG data is all the STB needs to know to populate the the initial guide. Each customer STB only has to download one local APG.

    I have no idea what it is doing in the 2 minutes of the boot process prior to step 2 of 2.

    I do think there has been improvement in the boot sequence timing, but that is related to the efficiency of the software.

    Remember I'm doing this on an H20, which is running the old SD GUI that shows the progress bar starting at 0% not the step 1 of 2 / step 2 of 2 thing the HD GUI does. I started the timer when it went from "searching for satellite signal" to the progress bar showing 0%, and ended the timer when it showed 100% for a split second and then went to the main screen.

    When I disconnected I did so when it showed about 5% on the progress meter - it would have been about 90 seconds (I didn't time this) with the progress going up where it was downloading from 103. It couldn't have been downloading from 101 since 101 was not even connected, only the 22 KHz polarities were. As 103 was the only thing connected in the test I did with the SL3 config, that's where it had to be coming from.

    I have a polarity locker, amp and 3 way splitters feeding three DSWM30s, when I'm disconnecting 101 I'm doing so from the LNB -> polarity locker connections so the remaining polarities are locked and can't be overridden by the receiver / switch.

    I didn't time how long the boot process takes on an H24 for comparison, but there's no way to directly compare since it doesn't show the progress bar. I have no idea what the H20 is downloading during this process, only that the progress bar indicates it is downloading something.

  8. #78
    Data Miner Tom Speer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slice1900 View Post
    Remember I'm doing this on an H20, which is running the old SD GUI that shows the progress bar starting at 0% not the step 1 of 2 / step 2 of 2 thing the HD GUI does. I started the timer when it went from "searching for satellite signal" to the progress bar showing 0%, and ended the timer when it showed 100% for a split second and then went to the main screen.

    When I disconnected I did so when it showed about 5% on the progress meter - it would have been about 90 seconds (I didn't time this) with the progress going up where it was downloading from 103. It couldn't have been downloading from 101 since 101 was not even connected, only the 22 KHz polarities were. As 103 was the only thing connected in the test I did with the SL3 config, that's where it had to be coming from.

    I have a polarity locker, amp and 3 way splitters feeding three DSWM30s, when I'm disconnecting 101 I'm doing so from the LNB -> polarity locker connections so the remaining polarities are locked and can't be overridden by the receiver / switch.

    I didn't time how long the boot process takes on an H24 for comparison, but there's no way to directly compare since it doesn't show the progress bar. I have no idea what the H20 is downloading during this process, only that the progress bar indicates it is downloading something.
    You should look at what channels you have in the guide right after doing the restricted download. Without the fast APG data, channels will start appearing from the slow APG data. Without 101 available, the guide should look pretty empty. Without the even transponders available, you probably won't see any of the SD duplicates for the national channels, initially. The boot process on my HR54 takes almost exactly 3 minutes. It doesn't even start to try to receive anything from the satellites for the first two minutes. I suspect that the progress bar on the old GUI was showing time for other things in the boot process, rather than just the guide data. Any Linux based system spends a lot of boot time figuring out its hardware configuration and initializing software.
    Last edited by Tom Speer; 10-14-2018 at 12:11 PM.
    Tom Speer, N2HF, the curious otter. Part of the DataDigesters team.

  9. #79
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    Part of the time after the "searching for satellite signal" message may be time spent figuring out that it is connected to a SWM system, and setting up the communications with it. Does a H20 actually use a SWM?
    Tom Speer, N2HF, the curious otter. Part of the DataDigesters team.

  10. #80
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    Sometime this week I'll give it a try again and verify I have the full guide or what's missing if not. I'll also give it a try in legacy mode (yes, the H20 supports SWM perfectly, other than being limited to the 8 original SWM channel frequencies even on a DSWM30) to see if it acts differently.

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